other colonial cities in Latin America

[Sue100]

As much as I love GTO, I feel as if I am shortchanging myself by only coming here and never going anywhere else. Usually I come for a couple of months. What I treasure about GTO:
the weather (especially that it does not get hot and humid)
the walkability
the colonial beauty
the low proportion of expats to locals
(related to the above point) the fact that I am forced to use my Spanish because few locals speak English.

Has anyone spent time in other colonial cities-- in Mexico or other countries in Central or South America-- that meet these criteria? I would be grateful if you could share your experiences and make some comparisons.

[peddler665]

Guadalajara, Patzcuaro, Morelia , Oaxaca, Toulca along with a number of others are places I visited. Of these GTO is far away the best over all. I enjoyed them all but some more than others. The extreme poverty and political disruption at Oaxaca I found a real distraction along with lots of good things.
Morelia/Patzcuaro are indeed great especially Patzcuaro but chilly, Toulca a nice enough place but a real blue collar city. Guadalajara is indeed well worth a visit but lacks GTO charm.
PS Of course Mexico City is indeed a World class destination.

[DonJuane]

May not be many exact matches for Guanajuato out there. Most places that are appealing in Latin America get advertised (here and otherwise) and thus the word spreads, the Gringo accommodations rise in response to the Gringo traffic, the expensive restaurants and shops pop up, the prices overall go up and the place gets gentrified as the locals get railroaded out and more Gringos and high-rollers move in, while all charm is lost as it is traded for the almighty dollar.

The thing that could possibly be keeping GTO primarily Mexico oriented and Spanish speaking is that in general it is the older retired generation that is most able to travel in significant numbers and the walk about town can be a little taxing to relentless on many of us and thus this keeps the numbers thinned down a bit. Also, if you want to anger most N. Americano's, just take away their cars and for the most part GTO proper is no place for a car. Also for some reason the typical tackiness that drives gentrification can't seem to catch on here for some reason (and to most of our delight, I might add). Or it could be a slow evolution for the same reason the forum posts don't take off here, everyone is sort of zombi-ed out doing their own thing and the drive to make it a tourist city with each of us anxious to invest and rake in dough while making it "tacky town" is not as great as that natural migration at other locations. Still lots of tourists do seem to visit - they just (thankfully) don't seem to "stick". So that's my opinion of why you won't find too many cities populated exactly like GTO (with it understood that there is no other place with underground streets a death wish of relentless climbs up the sides of a mountain).

Morelia (as previously mentioned) is likely a close candidate to compare due to the boogy man tales of many years of the drug runners enjoying the good Michoican growing soil as much as the avocado farmers do. That "vibe" has kept a lot of N. Americanos off the streets as the city slowly becomes cosmopolitan for more and more Spanish speakers who don't seem to live in fear like the typical N. Americano does. So I personally think it is a great contender.

Patzcuaro is being slowly overrun with Gringos and will soon lose it's Mexican heritage, mirroring before too long the likes of San Miguel de Allende, MX, Lake Chapala, MX, Antigua, Guatemala, Granada, Nicaragua, etc. Still as much as I like GTO I would say you shouldn't hesitate to at least once visit these cities for a few days or a week or so to see if you get a different "vibe" than I do.

And I would also consider moving to or spending more time in Guadalajara and personally even more-so than Queretaro but since these cities are big US manufacturing and wholesale hubs, the English speakers may be more than you are willing to tolerate. It's easy to find at least one person on most blocks in Guad, Morelia, Queretaro who speaks English.

And while San Cristobal de las Casas is a great place to learn Spanish due to the fact the many indigenous in the area have Spanish as a second language and therefore the local Spanish speakers communicate via a slower paced and clearer Spanish dialect, the fact of the matter is that this place is cold as hell, well hell's not cold but this place is, with temps down to freezing for a couple of months each year. Here you'll find mostly European tourists, not much English and the only N. Americanos seem to be missionaries bent on separating the local indigenous from their tribal roots while getting them expelled from their previous communities, or in other words, those on a mission. Otherwise, most N. Americanos still have memories of masked Zapatistas who ride into town with machine guns to take over the city, and it, like Morelia remains a great place to remain designated as a place to be scared of (and to the advantage of most of us who would like to also keep it that way, as do most established residents of GTO.)

I also have two or three towns that I would choose "other than" or "after I am climbed-out and rheumatoid-frustrated from" GTO, but if I mentioned them they might soon meet the same fate that GTO is currently falling into, a slow but sure inevitable gentrification.

So the key I would say and answer to your question is to obtain an elevation map and check out some cities of similar size at a similar altitude and keep your mouth shut while you adjust to your new hidden jewel. Otherwise if you ever long for like-cultured company, just drop into any of the aforementioned bi-lingual cities. But no matter what, please dismiss my opinion, visit them all and form an opinion of your own. Happy Travels!

[DonJuane]

P.S. There surely is no perfect place. Colonial city wise, Saltillo is a little too hot and slow moving, Zaclatecas is a little too cold in the winter, San Luis Potosi is a little too socked-in downtown culturally, Augascalientes is a little too bumpy, oldish and whacky, Real de Catorce is a little too small, Dolores Hidalgo is a little too hot and short on culture, San Miguel de Allende is a little too hot, dry and crowded, Guanajuato is a little too hot, dry and hilly, Leon is a little too big and sleepy, Morelia is a little too locked inward culturally, Puebla is a little too crowded and busy, Oaxaca is a little too over-run and overpriced. and so on ....

[jesm]

For those with a longer term horizon it is worthwhile to understand the extremely stringent building codes and development restrictions that govern Guanajuato. The INAH at the Federal level has essentially a veto power over any physical alterations that could damage the historical ambiance of GTO. While not blocking all development it does offer some guarantee that high rises and other constructions will not impact the historic and cultural core. Such Federal protections do not apply in most other locales.
This will restrict high volume construction thus reducing housing supply, so higher prices and far fewer landing spots for expats, and others.

[Sue100]

@DonJuane: "Patzcuaro is being slowly overrun with Gringos and will soon lose it's Mexican heritage, mirroring before too long the likes of San Miguel de Allende, MX, Lake Chapala, MX, Antigua, Guatemala, Granada, Nicaragua, etc"

Antigua, Guatemala is one of the cities I am looking at. Have you been there? You found it was too touristy?

[DonJuane]

Yes I have visited Antigua four times in the past 10 years because I do enjoy visiting there. Still I don't believe I would want to live there because it to me is a bit of a false facade as far as a genuine makeup of a Latin American city. From the city's history, it was abandoned after an earthquake and to me gives the impression of an aura similar to Real de Catorce but on a much grander scale of course, where the tourist industry has reclaimed a ghost town after it was abandoned but at the same time done their best to mask that fact to the point it is not obviously unappealing. You can't beat the architecture of the buildings and monuments but the overall authenticity doesn't run much deeper than the buildings which frame the touristic commerce that now flows here.

Still I believe you absolutely should visit Antigua - I would highly recommend it. (To be my most sarcastic I would call San Miguel de Allende a place where wealthy North American parents release their 14 year old girls to go shopping and Antigua to be the same for 14 year old girls of French descent. But to be my most non-sarcastic, I would say these are two cities that are a lot of fun and highly worth visiting at any reasonable cost.)

First of all, however, if I were you I'd take the reasonably priced 4 hour bus ride from GTO to Morelia and stay there a few days (timing for the weekend if you enjoy fireworks that they have on Sat night.) (Note there is supposedly now a new toll road that goes directly to Patzcuaro that takes only 2.5 hours to travel there but I have not been that way yet.) If you are here now (this month) then while visiting Morelia you might consider taking a tour to one of the Monarch butterfly reserves as a side trip. If you can afford to pay a little more and you enjoy hot springs, try to find a private guide instead of a van service, someone who will also take you by the hot springs at Los Azufres near the reserves after your early morning visit to see the butterflies. The area of the hot springs is very difficult to reach via public transportation and there are several facilities there from theme-park-like to stinky mud mineral, so have a close look at each and choose the right one for you before you make the final exit from your tour guide's auto.

And of course Patzcuaro will be only an hour away from Morelia and too close to miss when visiting there if you have the time and budget. I'd not hesitate also to take the second class from Morelia there as well because it offers a birds eye view of the terrain that makes up the unique geography, which to me is extremely interesting as well. Try to land a window seat and one where you can open and close as desired while you snap any photos out of it and can regulate the chill in the process. The area of Michocan has perhaps the richest soil of anywhere in Mexico and it's refreshing to see all that grows there (or to think what might be growing back in the woods LOL).

Then if you have a little more time and budget, to finally round out the trip you could visit Uruapan and even optionally take a horse ride or long hike down to the falls in the national park there. Funny thing about Uruapan is it's like buying fish in Alaska, the avocados sold there seem to come off the same truck that delivers them from unknown parts to GTO. The ones that are grown in Uruapan are all too large and fine of a commodity to be sold locally and are mostly designated for the US, just like the delicious fish caught in Alaska and shipped elsewhere.

Patzcuaro offers additional charms and again if you have the time, hopping on the many buses that circle around the lake can be rewarding as you encounter villages that specialize in pottery, copper, textiles and other crafts that are made at the various villages. You might also enjoy catching one of the big boats that go out to the quirky island which is made like an ice cream swirl of curio shops, bars and restaurants.

And if you like the beach and wish to further distribute your hard earned money among the well deserving citizens of Michoacan, you can take another 4 hr bus continuing westward to encounter the charming, yet glowingly overpriced but still affordable, Zihuatanejo.

[jesm]

Antigua is a lovely spot with fantastic vistas as it sits right below a dramatic volcano. It has however been overrun by foreign residents and investors, more so than even San Miguel. Not much Guatemala left there but you are only a short way to Maya villages and culture.

[DonJuane]

Yes, but consider also not making Antigua your only stop. Flying into Guatemala City, it's a 30 minute shuttle ride to Antigua. And while the volcano is for many a no-miss, from what I have read the tours recently up to it have been severely shortened and the previous viewings of hot lava have been replaced with demos of roasting marshmallows on a steam vent, so be careful and understand what you may be getting from a very cold and long walk (or optional horse ride). From Antigua get a full dose of what it offers you personally, then hopefully you will have allocated enough time and budget to continue westward toward Panajachel where you can use it as a hub for a few days while visiting both the largest city on the lake and other surrounding villages as well. Inside Panajachel proper you can join your favorite US based evangelical group to build another temple around the lake or grab some sushi, pho, gourmet Italian, baked wonders, etc in town. Later on you can comb the various villages around the lake one at a time via the water taxis.

To the east mostly you can see old authentic indigenous villages including the Ken Edwards pottery capital of the area. To the west you will encounter villages such as San Marcos where you'll find crystals and backyard spirit-centered pyramids. Move on to San Pedro and enjoy the hippie dippie and growing quaint to weird restaurant and souvenir shop mecca of that stop. From Pana also zip up to Chichicastenango on market days for one of the wildest flea and craft markets you have ever experienced.

Then as a final option, perhaps shuttle on to Quetzaltenango (called Xela or pronounced "shay-lah" by the locals). There pick some old world Gothic energy in the marimba capital of the world while swirling in the cultural marvels of the downtown shabby markets to the uptown shabby Walmart. It will be well worth hopping aboard a bar-around-the-bed pickup northward to the weekly market in Solola where you will encounter perhaps the most old-wordly market in Central America. Also worth mention is a trip southward to Zunil for market day as well and from there continuing on up the 10,000' mountain to see the continent's most impressive vegetable gardens while ending the day on the end of that road in the chilly air with a soak in the very hot and steamy springs of Fuentes Georginas.

[DonJuane]

Oops, I left out the side trip option to Flores and the ruins of Tikal while in Guatemala. These are located about 6 hours north of the HW1 corridor area you will be traveling along while following my previous recommendations. I would not recommend using the commercial bus system in Guatemala to get there, however, as this is where my infamous encounter happened where on the bus I opened the restroom door and a wind current gave me a toilet shower on one fateful trip from Flores to Guatemala city. (Happened in 2014) Needless to say, I didn't have to worry long about people sitting near me for the remaining 5 hours of the ride. Believe it or not, you actually get used to the smell and it does seem to all wash out eventually.

It's normally better to take a shuttle here using some service like Adrenalina (sp?) tours that uses shuttle vans to zip you most quickly around the country. They of course cost more than the "Mexico wanna-be" commercial bus offerings or the Chicken buses (comically painted school buses). However if convenience and the price that comes with it is not your thing and assuming authenticity is, if you have a great command of the Spanish language it can be fun to work through the matrix of routes to get places while hopping from one Chicken bus route to another with a few standing up in the back of a pickup truck sessions added to round out the experience.

Once in Flores you not only get the option of touring the often extremely hot during the summer Tikal ruins but you also get to experience the ruins of Flores where this once quaint village in the middle of nowhere recently received a super-mall that has been built right in the middle of the previous historic and adorable village, a mall complete with all the same kinds of things one might also pick up somewhere in an area like Playa del Carmen, MX Now if they finished out the mall as planned since I was last there, visitors to the area may now also be relishing in the luxury of the planned full size cinema.